Exploring 5/4 within in 4/4 Swing from Mike Longo’s “Rhythmic Nature of Jazz” 

As musicians, we’re often drawn to challenges that expand our understanding of rhythm, harmony, and melody. One rhythmic concept that captivated me is the integration of 5/4 into 4/4 swing. This isn’t just a theoretical exercise—it’s a deeply practical and rewarding exploration. Inspired by jazz legend Mike Longo’s rhythmic teachings, I embarked on a journey to unravel the possibilities of blending these distinct time signatures. Here, I’ll share my discoveries, exercises, and insights into this fascinating interplay.

See the following concepts demonstrated in these two videos:

Part I

Part II

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Setting the Stage

Breaking Down 5/4: Groupings of 3+3+2+2

To start, I focused on the foundational rhythm of 5/4, subdivided into 3+3+2+2 eighth notes. This grouping creates a natural flow while maintaining the rhythmic integrity of 5/4. Played in triplets, the rhythm transforms into a 10/8 feel.

Aligning with 4/4 Swing

Overlaying 5/4 onto 4/4 swing revealed its inherent complexity. Each bar of 4/4 swing contains 12 triplet eighth notes, and a single cycle of 5/4 spans 10 eighth notes. This means it takes three 5/4 cycles to align with two-and-a-half bars of 4/4 swing. Complete resolution occurs after six cycles of 5/4, which span five full bars of 4/4.

Understanding this theoretical framework was key before diving into practical applications.

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Building Fluency

1. Starting with the Basics

Before introducing 5/4 into a 4/4 context, I practiced the 5/4 rhythm independently. Vocalizing the 3+3+2+2 grouping using syllables like “TakidaTa—TakaTa” helped internalize the rhythm. This step was crucial for hearing and feeling the pattern without the added complexity of 4/4 swing.

2. Walking and Counting

One of the most effective exercises was walking to the 4/4 pulse while counting and clapping the 5/4 rhythm. I started by keeping my steps consistent with the 4/4 beat, clapping the 5/4 groupings as they shifted across the walking pulse. This exercise solidified my ability to feel both rhythms simultaneously.

3. Experimenting with Starting Points

Each starting point within the 5/4 cycle—on, after, and before the beat—created unique phrasing and energy when overlaid on 4/4 swing. To internalize these shifts, I practiced each starting point repeatedly over a backing track.

For example:

• Starting “on” the beat aligned the first cycle naturally with the 4/4 downbeat.
• Starting “after” shifted the cycle forward, creating a pattern of after-before-on-after.
• Starting “before” anticipated the downbeat, creating a sense of rhythmic propulsion.

This exercise expanded my improvisational flexibility and deepened my understanding of rhythmic interplay.

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Putting It into Practice

Scatting Against a 6/8 Groove

To develop a sense of rhythmic flow, I began by scatting the 5/4 rhythm over a 6/8 drum groove. The triplet-based feel of 6/8 provided a familiar rhythmic framework, allowing me to focus on the accents of the 3+3+2+2 grouping.

Playing Over a Blues Shuffle

Next, I applied the 5/4 rhythm to a simple harmonic progression: | A7 | D7 |. The shuffle groove provided a steady swing feel, grounding the rhythm in a musical context. This exercise bridged the gap between rhythmic theory and practical application.

Structured Practice with a Backing Track

Using a backing track with a sidestick snare emphasizing the 5/4 rhythm, I practiced locking into the pattern while improvising melodically over a 5-bar jazz progression. Repeating the pattern four times per cycle, with each cycle separated by a 5-bar resolution, reinforced the relationship between rhythm and harmony.

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Creative Challenges and Insights

Subdivisions and Variations

One of my favorite discoveries was experimenting with subdivisions within the 3+3+2+2 grouping. For instance:

• Subdividing the first “3” and “2” into eighth-note pairs created 1&2&(3)4&5.
• Alternating between subdivided and non-subdivided groupings added variety and texture to the rhythm.

Improvising Over a 5-Bar Jazz Progression

To explore the rhythmic possibilities further, I improvised over a 5-bar jazz progression: | Cmaj7 | Am7 | Dm7 | F/G | G7 |. I practiced starting the 5/4 rhythm at each key point (on, after, before), repeating each starting point four times in a row. This approach revealed how the starting point influenced the phrasing and feel of my improvisation.

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Collaborative and Compositional Ideas

Ensemble Practice

Collaborating with other musicians opened new dimensions of the rhythm. For example:

• A drummer maintained a steady 4/4 swing groove while I explored the 5/4 rhythm.
• A bassist emphasized key accents in the 5/4 cycle, creating a rhythmic dialogue.

Composing with 5/4

The rhythmic tension of 5/4 inspired new compositional ideas:

• Alternating sections of 5/4 and 4/4 created a dynamic contrast.
• Writing melodies that aligned with the 3+3+2+2 grouping added a unique flavor to the composition.

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Why This Matters

Exploring 5/4 in 4/4 swing has been a transformative experience. It’s pushed me to rethink rhythm, enhanced my improvisational skills, and deepened my connection to the music. This journey has also shown me the value of patience and persistence—mastering complex rhythms takes time, but the rewards are worth it.

For those interested in trying this, start slow. Practice scatting, counting, and walking to internalize the rhythm. Experiment with starting points, subdivisions, and musical applications. Most importantly, enjoy the process of discovery.

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By expanding your rhythmic vocabulary, you’ll unlock new dimensions of creativity and expression. If you’re ready to take on the challenge, dive in and see where the rhythm takes you!